Exploding the
Sugar Ray Robinson/Muhammad Ali Myths

By Terence "One Punch" Dooley


The two names in the title refer to the boxing standards by which all other fighters are judged; heavies are measured by Ali whilst P4P fighters are inevitably compared negatively to Ray Robinson. However we need to ask ourselves if we genuinely pick these men as our personal best or do we just let regular boxing cliché and convention pick them for us? If this is the case there is a problem. If one was to pick the winner of a fight based on a fistful of cliché and the odd boxing truism the prediction game would fall apart at the seams. Predicting fights, as well as picking great fighters, needs to be an exact science rather than following the general consensus like so many lemmings (Note to Gary Randall if your underlings are lemmings they follow you…right over the edge of the cliff). So let us try a little experiment:

Marvin Hagler is my pick for P4P best ever.

Obviously I’m wrong right? Don’t know what I’m talking about correct? Yet this is my genuine pick based on a number of factors, when I passed this pick on in conversation to a friend of mine his reply was along the lines of “Clearly you are mistaken! Robinson is the best P4P ever.” I am constantly told that Sugar Ray is the sure fire bet for this top rank, however I asked my friend to elaborate and it became quickly evident that his pick was based on a few highlight reels he had seen of Ray and very little else. I have no qualms with Ray as top pick or Ali as top heavyweight…only I hope people have the courtesy to watch the fights that defined them rather than base their predictions on highlight reels. If Ray is so sure fire why do boxing fans make hard work of defending him when pressed? I’d be as bold as to say that it is comfortable to go for Ray, it is the fistic equivalent of putting your feet into an old pair of comfy slippers, and this stasis in thinking is not what boxing should be about. So please suspend your criticism of my pick for a moment, put aside your conviction that I must have rocks in my head to go for Hagler and allow me to present a case for Marvin that may also prompt a little more thought, and therefore respect, being given to the incomparable Ray Robinson.

Sugar Ray Robinson, greatest middleweight ever. Easy isn’t it? So where do we go from here? We say that the man is a legend as he won the middleweight title an incredible five times…how many times did he lose it. This overshadows Marvin who merely held the title for seven years and made twelve defenses, in fact thirteen was really unlucky for Marvin as the judges seemed intent on giving points to a Sugar Ray that put up a convincing mirage of greatness on the night. Next up we say Sugar Ray Robinson took on the best men of his era such as La Motta, Graziano and Basillo (I will omit Henry Armstrong as he was old and Ray gave him a payday as well as Kid Gavilan as according to some reports Ray was lucky to get the win…other reports claim he was an easy winner, hard work this boxing analysis), whether immediately or through rematches Ray got his men aside. Marvin had to be content with wins over Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearn’s and John Mugabi…as well as the occasional (5) Philly wars which made Marvin. Add to that a whole host of solid middleweights and you can counter the claims that Marvin fought only blown - up welters, Sugar Ray Robinson was really a welter in disguise when he took on Basillo right…although it was Ray’s eighth year as a middle! Then the much bandied modern argument comes into play where we appoint greatness through the winning of belts in different divisions and say this makes a fighter great, this leaves Marvin stuck as he stayed in his natural division and made the most of his physical strengths…Ray moved up but may have regretted that stoppage at the hands of Joey Maxim, the light - heavyweight champion of the world. If winning more and more belts makes you great we’d better bump Marvin down and replace him with Duke McKenzie…you should have boiled down to welter Marvin rather than sticking as the gatekeeper of the middleweights. So there we go with opponents, legacy and the like…still easy for Ray isn’t it? Marvin is coming a shoddy distance behind.

There are other factors to consider though so maybe Marvin will have a case to present somewhere down the line. We could look at the achievements Ray made despite the fact cliché says he was past it as a middleweight and therefore lost to substandard fighters, that is a valid point but then requires the reassessment of men like Basillo, Fulmer and the like…just how good could they have been to struggle with an old man like Ray? Also another thing to consider are the defining final images of a fighters career, think Roy Jones…do you remember his wonderful skills? Or seeing the soles of his boxing boots in his last two bouts? Marvin lost and walked away from the game in disgust but with a certain amount of dignity, Ray Robinson could never walk away and spent years undoing his entire legacy building by taking on mediocre guys and losing. Endings mean nothing right? Think of a really good film you watched that was let down at the end, annoying isn’t it? It ruins the whole feature for you. So Marvin did it right whilst Ray got it wrong in this regard, of that there is little dispute. Overall an image is emerging of the correct way to assess a fighter and it is not being repeatedly told that the Ray/Ali axis represents the beginning and end of boxing excellence until this view becomes a cliché. My problem with cliché is that it becomes so standard you trot it out without comprehending its meaning, like my friend who has not even watched the men in question box but just knows that they are the best…every other opinion becomes less valid despite being possibly more informed. Again we take a more scientific approach to fight predictions so why not use it in regard to the P4P listings? Speaking of fight predictions…

When predicting a fight the usual procedure is to outline the form of the fighter, outline the achievements of their career so far, compare opponents faced and tackle questions of size and the like. Finally you reach a point where it becomes necessary to cast aside the intangibles, build a boxing ring in your mind and allow the two to duke it out; then you declare a winner. So why not apply this where possible to P4P rankings? You are telling me it is not feasible as the list is populated by different weights right? That is correct but it does not stop us applying this formula to Sugar Ray and Marvelous Marvin…two wonderful middleweight champions. You may now say it is unfair as Ray was a welter at heart, well not according to his career stats, you say Ray was faded by the time he was middleweight champion? Well I’ve seen with my own eyes that Marvin was a better fighting machine before and shortly after his title win. So just for fun let us let them duke it out.

…Firstly we have the Sugar Ray Leonard argument, this tells us that Leonard was a Robinson - Lite and if he could beat Marvin then Robinson could. Nope. Leonard was not Robinson, the original Ray moved well but not as flamboyantly in the ring as he did in Paris nightclubs. He relied on good positioning, fast combination punching and decent defense to do his work whereas Leonard versus Marvin could have been fought on an ice-skating rink. Marvin on the other hand could move well as a younger contender, he punched with either hand, his defense was equally as tight and his effectiveness was increased by the surprise element of his being a southpaw fighter who was naturally right handed. So in terms of style both men have a lot to offer each offer in an imaginary match - up, Marvin did everything well whilst Ray had the extra dose of stardust but could be prone to taking it easy, a trait Marvin was never accused doff. Next up we think about the possibility of a stoppage on either side, Marvin was never even close whilst Ray did lose via this route to Maxim who was forced to fight in the same weather conditions Ray had to suffer. Also Marvin never went down legitimately (Roldan was a pull - down) whilst Ray was down between nine and ten times or maybe more. Therefore it is not inconceivable to see Marvin getting Ray on the deck but Marvin going down…highly unlikely. So next we consider the better boxing brain of Ray wearing Marvin down, yet Marvin himself was able to adapt in fights depending on his opponents set - up…Duran bout evidenced this for us all. Fact is both Ray and Marvin are pretty evenly matched in every department and furthermore if Jake La Motta can beat a peaking Ray Robinson it is not a huge stretch to envisage Marvin doing it also. In all truth if the fight was real and taking place tomorrow would you bet your life on Ray or Marvin winning? Interesting isn’t it? So are we upgrading Marvin or downgrading Ray…or could it be that when it comes to Ali and Ray Robinson we are getting lazy and just spouting the cliché like a mantra? Well every so often a cliché needs to be challenged, if you do so and it just reinforces your pick then at least next time someone goes against it you will be ready for them and not finding yourself reaching for that Robinson highlight video or the copy of “When we Were Kings.”

Disclaimer: Although intended to make you think a little about your boxing picks the above does contain my personal P4P pick…Marvelous Marvin Hagler. Followed of course by Ray Robinson, people say I’m crazy but then that is what boxing is all about, that is what the P4P debate is all about. In a time when contenders are called champions and a few years as a champion qualifies you as a “Great” we run the risk of making a mockery of the current P4P list and the eternal list of boxers that truly deserve the label “Great.” It should not be too hard to defend the real greats…but it is still necessary to investigate their claims every so often. If you have a problem with my pick feel free to tell me where I made my mistake, I may be able to reply or maybe I won’t be able to reply, all I know for sure is that every time I watch Marvin box I say to myself:

“This man is the best fighting machine I’ve ever had the pleasure of watching!”


Questions Or Comments? Please Contact Terence "One Punch" Dooley