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I.F.F.B.C
Champion |
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VACANT |
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March
2005's Fan
Fights:
Neil1690 vs. Chin Checker (Mar. 21-27)
Neckodeemus vs. Rust Oleum II (Mar. 14-20) - Championship Fan Fight
This Weeks Fan Fight
(Mar. 7-13) Cancelled
Neckodeemus vs. Enzo Macaroni (Feb. 28-Mar. 6) - Championship Fan Fight |
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This Week's Fan Fight
(Mar. 21-27):
"Who Wins: Jose
Luis Castillo vs. Diego Corrales?" |
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Result at Time Of Stoppage: Blue:
20,
Red: 17
Neil1690 KO 3
Chin Checker |
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Blue Corner:
Neil1690 (2-1, 1 KO) - Jose Luis Castillo
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Red
Corner: Chin Checker (Fan Fight Debut) - Diego Corrales - |
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-Round 1 - |
Blue:
"To open this contest I think a good
starting point form my perspective, is to look at some of the strengths
of Castillo in relation to the weakenesses of Corrales. Castillo is big
and super strong at the lightweight limit, whereas Corrales can only be
regarded as being natural at the weight. We have seen in the past,
Castillo using his size and strength to wear opponents down, Diaz being
the most recent example, and any concerns that Castillo would be weight
drained were pushed firmly out of the window. Corrales, in my opinion,
relies too much on his firepower and I think most would agree that the
likelyhood of Jose Luis being stopped are extremely remote. When
Corrales can't get his man out of there, his flaws are more visible.
Looking at his last BIG fights he has struggled in all of them. Against
Freitas he was being outboxed by a very timid Freitas who was too scared
to mix it with Diego and thus he was able to catch up with the
Brazillian in the later rounds. He struggled against the slippery
Casamayor, but as usual, Joel's downfall was that he simply did not
throw enough punches and got lazy for large periods of the fight. This
will not happen against Castillo, as 1.) he will not be scared of
Corrales, 2.) He is going to land against Corrales, as his defence is
leaky at best 3.) Castillo punches with more venom than he is given
credit for and Corrales will be wary of charging in. This would most
likely lead to Castillo controlling action from the centre of the ring,
throwing lots of punches, simply outworking Corrales, slowly wearing him
down. As we have seen before, Corrales can be hurt and dropped, most
spectacularly proven by Floyd Mayweather Jr who took Corrales apart, yet
was unable to put a dent in Castillo in either of their bouts, and was
extremely fortunate to pick up the decision in their first fight.
As I have stated many times before, on this site and others, chin is the
most important facet in boxing and in this fight I think Corrlaes'
vulnerability in this department will ultimately lead to his downfall."
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Red: "Corrales would win. Im not
saying it would be easy because I consider this a super fight, but if
there is to be a winner it would be Corrales. Castillo is a good boxer,
but I see the same things from him in every fight, win or lose. Corrales
on the other hand has shown he can switch up, use different technique
and has a Plan B and C and more. The only time Corrales didnt show that
was in his fight with Floyd. That fight reminds me of how Castillo is.
Gutsy and full of heart, but will fall into his opponents fight plan if
theyre smart enough. Corrales took that loss and was able to turn his
career around. What puncher outboxes a boxer? Corrales did that in the
rematch with Casamayor. If Tyson who is considered a puncher, fought Ali
who is considered a boxer, the likely outcomes of that fight would
either be Tyson by KO or Ali by Points or maybe Ali by KO(considering
this was a prime Tyson). The Tyson on points outcome would be the most
unlikely, and that's how I compare Corrales' victory over Casamayor. If
he was going to win, it wouldve been by KO, but he defied the odds and
outboxed a boxer. How often does that happen? Corrales in doing this
shows he can box as well as punch. Castillo did good in his first fight
with Floyd, but that appeared to be more of an off night for Floyd as
the rematch showed Castillo had no Plan B and could not repeat what he
had done the first time. That shows he fell into his opponents fight
plan, something Corrales might do, but he uses it to his advantage. It
was Corrales following Freitas fight play from the beginning, but in
actuality it was Corrales who was making Freitas break down and fight
Corrales' fight. Corrales was just wearing him down, waiting for the
right moment to take full control. I havent seen Castillo do that yet.
Castillo will just keep coming forward and Corrales will box his way to
a win."
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Good opening round by both men here. Neil being with one, two
combinations to open up a tight defense on Chin Checker. Neil breaks
down both Castillo and Corrales' fights, in particular, their common
opponents, Mayweather Jr. and Casamayor. Good points on each.
Chin Checker comes right back with some straight right hands of his own,
pointing out the loss to Floyd turned Corrales' career around.
Interesting analysis of a puncher vs. a Boxer used by Chin, and I agree
that the least likely outcome was how Corrales prevailed.
A very close round here, but Neil lands the final punch, an over hand
right over the guard that lands flush. "Corrales' vulnerability" and
"chin" will be a huge factor, and probably the most looked at aspect
going into the fight.
* 10-9 Round to Blue *
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- Round 2 - |
Red: "So thats what this is all
about, Diego's chin. I had a bad feeling about that. Yes he doesnt have
the greatest chin, but only when he leaves it out there for you to hit.
Besides, his recuperation time is great. He's never been down and out.
He was down and up each of the 5 times Floyd dropped him. As well as up
on each knockdown Joel scored. But when you go down from Chico, you dont
get back up, or you get up on uneasy legs. Corrales knows how to box, so
when he faced Freitas who had the highest KO percentage in their
weightclass, was Chico's chin a factor? NO! He was hit flush a few times
in fact, but took each punch. Did Freitas take Chcio's punches? Of
course he did, he took them, went down, then decided he didnt want to
take anymore. Castillo doesnt have the KO ratio Freitas has. Now when we
talk about power, Corrales exceeded in this as well. Why did it take
Castillo so long to KO Julio Diaz who was considered to have a weak
chin, one worse than Corrales? Julio has been KO'd unconscious before,
once in like 10 seconds, yet it took Castillo almost the full fight
length to finally put him down. If that's his fight plan then Corrales
wont go down and will win easy. You say that Castillo losing by KO is
about impossible. Well in every single loss he's had, other than the
last two to Floyd, he was TKO'd. TKO's in 2 once, in 10 thrice. The
fight doesnt need to be stopped on Castillo being on the canvas, he
could get cut, and thats something I figure to be an even bigger factor
if this fight when you mix in Castillo who you say wont stop coming
forward against Corrales who wont stop punching."
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Blue: "Ok, many points made by
you in this round, most can be easily countered or in some cases can be
proved to be inaccurate. I was surprised by your pretty forthright
admission that Diego does not have the 'greatest' of chins, and
obviously he never delibirately 'leaves it out', its just simply a lack
of defensive ability on Corrales' part. Now when you turn that around,
looking at Castillo's defence, it is one of the most solid in boxing.
His chin is well tucked in, hands raised high, and he has the supreme
ability to block shots with his gloves. I have seen highlights of his
fight with Diaz and he blocks many of his opponents shots with his
gloves and by all accounts this was successful against Casamayor also.
Your main case in the last round was to praise Corrales for his win over
Freitas, who has A better KO percentage than Castillo. Have you seen
Freitas' record and compared it with Castillo's?? Freitas has only had
two major fights in his career, a shady victory over the predictably
pedestrian Casamayor, who would have won if he had simply thrown more
punches, and his knockout loss to Corrales. The writing had been on the
wall for Freitas, down in previous fights and saving himself with his
punch power against majorly inferior opposition. Anyway, Corrales'
punch power is not in question here, but how effective will it be
against someone with such an effective defence like Castillo?? Also,
bearing in mind that Castillo for me is constantly improving , technique
wise with every fight he has. Did you notice the lead left and right
hooks that he was landing against Diaz?? I don't think that Corrales is
going to have the skills advantage that some think going into this
fight. Coupled with Castillo's very direct style, his ability to throw
combinations and relentless pressure, this is not the type of fight I
see Corrales winning especially when he likes to control the pace of
fights, something that you don't see many of Castillo's opponents
achieving.
As far as Corrales' knockdowns to Mayweather and Casamayor and getting
up, neither are concussive knockout specialists and the fact that he
went down is enough for me to suspect a severe weakness in the Diego
Corrales setup. Neither Casamayor or Mayweather were able to hurt
Castillo.
As far as cuts go, it's been about seven years since Castillo was last
stopped that way, and I think his war with Lazcano proves that he is
able to fight in that sort of brawl and still go the distance.
Basically, almost everything is stacked in Castillo's favour and I only
give Corrales a puncher's chance, and even that is very slight."
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Chin Checker begins round 2 by backing up. He appears to be more
cautious this round. Neil taking his time, playing the counter puncher.
Good point on Corrales not leaving his chin out and marking it as "lack
of defensive ability" as that's exactly how he let each knockdown apply.
Neil begins to take apart the defense of Chin here, countering
beautifully with his comparison of Freitas' and Castillo's records.
Freitas was not known for taking on much tough competition in leading up
to his high KO ratio record. Neil lands a huge right hand at the end of
the combintaion and DOOOOOWWWWN GOOOOOEEES CHIN!!!!!! Superb comments on
Freitas having a "shady victory" over Casamayor and the right hand that
did it was Freitas being down in previous fights vs. inferior
opposition.
4.....5.....6.....7.....Chin is up on 8!
Neil comes right in with combinations! Chin holds his guard in tight,
but the punches are still connecting. The referee looking close and DING
DING! Saved by the bell!
* 10-8 Round to Blue * 1 Knockdown
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- Round 3 - |
Blue: "OK, you stated that
Castillo in someway lacks punch power, shown by taking ten rounds to
take down a game Julio Diaz. Sorry to fire statistics in your
direction, but Castillo has 46 knockouts in 52 victories, that means 88%
of his victories have come by knockout, including a sixth round stoppage
of Cesar Bazan, and none of the other top guys managed that. Therefore
to dismiss Castillo as a puncher would not only be wrong, but extremely
foolish, especially when you consider Corrales' chin.
I think Castillo's experience and momentum are extremely important
factors going into this bout. He is finally beginning to get some of
the acknowledgement he deserves and is creeping into most experts top
ten p4p lists courtesy of his wins over Diaz, Casamayor and Lazcano.
Notice the stylistic differences in these opponents?? This proves that
Castillo is capable of taking on anybody know matter what their style,
and don't forget Stevie Johnson, another extremely awkward southpaw who
is extremely difficult to beat, thus for me no matter what plans
Corrales brings to the ring, Castillo will be able to deal with it based
on this evidence.
We have seen Castillo take centre of the ring and dominate his
opponents, we have seen him allow his opponents to come into him whilst
on the ropes, block his shots almost in mid-air and then fire
counter-punches over the top, and we have seen him go toe-to-toe and
come out successful. His range of shots increases all the time,
noticeable additions are the left uppercut and the right cross which did
particular damadge against Diaz. Couple all of this with his super
strength and rugged determination, I would love for you to describe to
me a strategy which Corrales can adopt, or certainly one he is capable
of based on evidence, to overcome these immense attributes."
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* Ladies And Gentlemen, This Fight Has Come To An Abrupt End As Chin
Checker Has Decided To Take A Knee At The Beginning Of Round 3 For The
Full 10 Count. Your Winner and Making A Successful Comeback To The
Ring...Neeeeeeiiiiiiilllllll1690!!!!!
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Neil, an impressive stoppage here in your comeback fight since losing to
the now former champion, what's next for you?
Neil1690:
Chin, what happened?
Chin Checker:
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- Round 4 - FINAL ROUND! |
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Red: |
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Blue: |
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* |
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Last Weeks
Fan Fight
(Mar. 14-20):
I.F.F.B.C. Championship Fan
Fight
"Did Sonny
Liston Take a 'Dive' vs. Muhammad Ali In Their Rematch?" |
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Result at Time of Stoppage: Blue:
17,
Red: 17
Rust Oleum TKO 2
Neckodeemus |
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Blue Corner:
Blue Corner:
Rust Oleum (1-1) Yes!
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Red Corner:
Neckodeemus (7-1, 4 KO's) I.F.F.B.C. Champ - No! -
Judges: "Thrill"(Ref), "Enchilada", "Straight Shootin"
Sheila |
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-Round 1 - |
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Blue:
"This was just too easy! I laid just
the tiniest morsel of bait, and Necko, you bit on it quicker than a
cod hitting a shiny lure on a moonlit evening. I figured I may need
to cast a few times before you hit, but like the brainless sea
creature, you now got a mouthful of hook and now I am reeling you
in. It seems as though you have become Champion of a group of
lemmings who somehow see you as a god. And apparently you have come
to believe you are a deity as well.
Allow me to quote your attempt at
a blast directed to me,
"Your arms are too short to box with GOD (K)Rusty so
get back to the Simpsons."
Before I go any further please know
this, that bit of blasphemy just cost you your title, but just to
make you the laughing stock of your useless little community, I will
play with you, so sit back while I pummel your toothless pasty flesh
into the pavement.
Speaking of your toothlessness, I must
be honest, when I saw last weeks topic, John Ruiz: Genuine
Champion or Sign of Heavyweight Decay, I couldn't help but
think about all the fun I could have had with you and the word
decay! But alas, I had to wait another 7 days, and truth be told, I
would have taken either side of any argument you chimed in on, just
to hammer you down is really all I want to do, but when I saw the
side you took for this argument I thought I must be dreaming.
Not only am I going to deflate your puffed up ego, but along the way
I am going to give you cold hard facts as to why this fight stunk of
rotting fish. I can't wait to hear your uneducated explanation for
how that was anything but a nosedive taken by Liston. I am loaded
with cold hard facts and I do believe this one will be over before
the scheduled 4 rounds and you will be wondering what hit you.
Now let us all see what else you had to
say to me after your last victory,
"I am Neckodeemus the embalmer
and I see (K)Rusty the clown has resurfaced after his "Gift" win
over me, some village is missing its idiot but I'm supremely
indifferent to him as his grasp of English is as poor as his name.
Gift? Dude I beat you hands down, fair
and square, unlike your poor argument for this one, the fix was not
in, you just got beat! You see you record, 6-1...that 1 is me and
it's going to be 2 before next week!
And without giving you too much detail,
I am from the States, we don't have villages here, we call them,
towns, cities and States. So the missing idiot could not be me, but
you on the other hand, you do hail from a land full of villages, and
look, I do believe your little cottage is vacant!"
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Red: "Is this shit for real? Oh
dear, oh dear sweet little (K)Rusty seems to have been wound up tight by
my remarks to him and is now ready to be sprung by me. Plus I'm 7 - 1 (8
- 1 after this skirmish) so you are discalculus as well as dumb! Firstly
you only present one tiny morsel of an argument to defend your point and
the rest of your time is spent quoting me (stealing another of my
innovations) so allow me to reciprocate: "give you cold hard facts as
to why this fight stunk of rotting fish. I can't wait to hear your
uneducated explanation for how that was anything but a nosedive taken by
Liston." Yet your facts are so cold you cannot summon them out of
storage! I think you read on the back of a book someone saying this
fight was fixed and now here you are. Truth is Liston did not DIVE he
QUIT and there is a world of difference. He went down from a punch (as I
will demonstrate) and was in a bad mental state as well as being too
scared to get up (for reasons I will reveal to you). Firstly the burning
question of how one fixes a fight as it involves both parties yet I know
100% Ali pulled out of an earlier fight date with a hernia which totally
destroyed Sonny's preparation plus I also know Sonny was an old man who
had had his best years PRIOR to his title days so was fighting
time...this delay ruined him as he'd gotten into the best shape he'd
been in so how can you claim he was training for a fix? Plus how did Ali
FAKE an hernia? No the fight was genuine and the delay was the first
hammer blow to poor Sonny. Come the fight itself and those of us that
have watched it in slo-mo can see the punch went up and over connecting
with Sonny's temple and causing his skin to ripple on the other side
thereby suggesting a meaningful contact. Ali could not hit you say? Any
man over two hundred pounds is going to hurt when he hits you...hell,
look at Cotto v Corley for an example of how a "non-hitter" can get
another man wobbly if he catches him on his temple. So Sonny went down
in a legitimate way and here is when the controversy starts as he could
have gotten up but decided to quit out instead. Is this cheating? Did
Bruce Seldon "Dive" v Tyson or just quit? Julius Francis...did he "Dive"
v Tyson or did he quit? Did Duran "Dive" v Leonard II or did he quit?
Sonny quit after getting his senses scrambled as he knew he was in for a
beating again and he knew his fitness had slipped since the postponement
and the time gap had further aged him. Sonny was a great fighter with
lots of heart (witness his brawl v Cleveland Williams) but in this fight
he also had outside influences which made him scared to get up and these
influences I will reveal to you shortly. You tell me how one wrangles a
fix between Ali (black activist surrounded by Nation of Islam and a
powerful spokesperson as LEGITIMATE champion) and Liston who needed
money sure but let me ask you one question that is asked when
accusations of fixing are made concerning the heavyweight title...is it
worth more to WIN and DEFEND the title or to take a one-off pay-off to
take a "Dive?" That is a rhetorical question so keep quiet matey!!
Answer is it is better to keep/win it."
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As we went to the judges scorecards for round one we found that it was a
unanimous identical score, straight across the board, Rust came out
showboating and in a matter of seconds he went down from a good stiff
jab. And although his babbling and taunting helped carry him through a
bit of the middle of the round his lack of making any valid point left
his guard down again, and he hit the deck one more time! We are all in
agreement that we are not sure what Rust is up to here, but it is
obvious that Necko is coming out strong as he stays focused while Rust
is all over the ring!
Score this one 10-7 for Necko!
The referee also wants to warn Rust that anymore of those cheap tactics
and it will cost you a point, and if it keeps up, you will be
disqualified!
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- Round 2 - |
Red: "I'm here to right a wrong
as Liston was a great fighter who peaked before becoming champ and is
now being dragged through the mud so here is my follow up you obnoxious
piece of .... (K)Rusty. You need enlightenment as to why Sonny was too
scared to get up? Answer lies in his prision days when Sonny was the
baddest man in the penitentiary but was afraid of a small group of
people...the crazy loony types. Sonny was a tough man and could use his
baleful scare to frighten a mass murderer but the man himself was scared
of the high security insane prisoners as Sonny was quick witted enough
to know that a crazy man feels no fear and could do anything at
anytime...even to a master BULLY like Liston. Liston equated Ali with
being crazy and found this highly disconcerting as he was not sure what
Ali would do next, especially after Ali pulled up in Sonny's driveway
late at night in a big bus! Ali was not scared of Liston and this
frightened Sonny. Another important factor is that unlike now, when
everyone has heard of the NOI...hell even the Five-Percent Nation, back
then no one had heard of the NOI and Liston thought they was some kind
of scary militant brainwashing group and he became caught up in the
media hype. What media hype you say? Well Ali had changed his name and
therefore mass perceptions of him and was being sent regular death
threats, there was talk of a bomb in the venue, snipers in the crowd,
race riots and other pleasantries. Liston was very much a 1950's
strong-arm gangster and was ill-equipped for the decade of revolutionary
talk and assassinations! Liston was just there to win back the crown
that he thought would change his life yet as mentioned he was left
crestfallen after the initial postponement. By the second date he was no
longer in the phenomenal shape (I've seen shots of him in a tight tee
shirt around the time of the original date and believe me (K)Rusty he
looked ripped as you Yanks say) he had been in prior to Ali's operation
and vitally his mind was in a whirl with all the
political stuff going on...stuff his gangster buddies had no control
over. Liston entered the ring that night absolutely TERRIFIED that Ali
was going to be assassinated and that if the gun man was some white
cracker he may shoot the wrong black guy. So with his mind swirling
Liston got hit CLEANLY with the hardest kind of shot (one you do not
see) went down and decided to quit rather than get up and become
embroiled in all the craziness surrounding this fight. No dive, no
betting scam, no gangsterism. Just a scared bully that met his match in
terms of opponent and circumstance. Don't worry about me running out of
steam either (K)Rust as I've got arguments for this one coming out of my
Ass. See you in round three peasant. Ps When talking trash the real
fighters throw some skill in also...you are not James Toney, more Peter
McNeeley "Cocoon of Fear" vintage!!"
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Blue:
"First off, I want to apologize
to the judges and ref, I hear you loud and clear and I promise no
more showboating or low blows.
With that said, I know this statement
has been used in other fan fights and with the risk of sounding
redundant, Necko, why are you making my argument for me. The same
facts you are using to prove that Liston did not take a dive are the
very same facts that I am going to say are the very reasons to prove
that he did in fact, take a dive.
Now since you want to give history
lessons, allow me to tell you what I know to be true as well.
The rematch between Cassius Clay, who
had changed his name to Muhammad Ali, and former champion Sonny
Liston was scheduled for November, 16, 1964.But 3 days before the
fight, Ali was diagnosed of having a hernia that had to be removed.
The fight was put off for 7 months. When the bout finally took place
in Maine, it fight wasn't even half done when the fight was over,
Ali had just thrown six serious punches before Liston hit the
canvas. Liston took the "phantom-punch," most did not see it,
including Liston. We know that Ali counters with a right that lands
on Liston’s jaw. The one he didn't see put him down. We know what
happens next, we have seen the famous snapshot a million times,
instead of going to his corner, Ali taunts Liston telling him to get
up, he knew that punch was not enough to end the fight this early!
A confused ref, Jersey Joe
Walcott seems unclear what to do and before he makes a decision, the
count could have gone up to 17 seconds. When informed of his miscue
Walcott stops the fight! Ali is the winner and from that moment on
the dive theory goes into full effect. Most smelled a rat and even
the FBI was brought in to check this one out.
Here's what both you and I and everyone
else knows, you are not the only one with this seedy information.
Theories are as follows,
A. Before the fight, Liston was visited
by Black Muslims who threatened to kill his daughter Eleanor if he
should win the rematch.
B. Ali was supposed to be assassinated
during the fight, and because he was in fear for his life, like you
said, the scared Liston decided to leave the ring as quick as
possible to save his own life. The quickest way to get out was to
take an early dive so he could get up and out of there. We agree on
that as well!
So then, you know that Liston stayed
down on purpose and so do I. Heck, even Ali himself knew the blow
was not a KO punch or he would have went quickly to the neutral
corner to allow the ref to begin his count!
Your mistake is a misinterpretation of
the question, let's look at it again, "Did Sonny Liston Take
a 'Dive' vs. Muhammad Ali In Their Rematch?" You somehow
equate that question to mean, Did he get he get paid to take a dive?
That is not what is being asked here, it asks if he took a dive,
that's it. This has done in Fanfight before too, but bear with me as
we take a look at Websters Dictionary for the definition of the word
dive:
Main Entry: [2]dive
Function: noun
3 : a faked knockout —
usually used in the phrase take a dive
With that in mind, you and I both
agree that Liston stayed down on purpose, for whatever reason, he
FAKED it!
I rest my case!"
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* Ladies
and Gentlemen, we want to apologize for the delay in the fan fight
but Necko has filed a formal complaint! It reads;
I'm sorry [Boxing2005.com] but I am
not complaining but this is too much of a coincidence. I know we all
use other sources but this guy is not a true fan so should I have to
point out even more of his cheating? (there is more). If you want
I'll finish the fight arguing about the case in hand but as my
opponent is showing a disregard for this feature below is a
debunking of his activities. I am not a sore loser but as you know
on BM I do not like people abusing my sport. This guy has cut and
pasted at least four or five direct lines from another site. This is
BS if I lose points for forming my own argument.
Now
then, the judges were already looking at the second round with a
fine toothed comb, as we found some very interesting and revealing
information from both fighters, at this point this was a very
compelling fight, call it a scientific match if you will! In all
honesty, wherever or however an opponent gets or posts their results
has no bearing on how we judge a fight, we simply look at the case
that he presents and how effectively he does it, that's ring
generalship. The complaint is duly noted but it shall have no effect
on the rendered decision.
As to the second round,
which we looked at very carefully, Necko came out with a fine
offense, displaying more of his technical skills and a fine work
ethic. It was in the middle of the round that Rust used an
unexpected defense that led to some of the most brilliant
counterpunching seen in quite some time. What Rust was did in
essence, was to take Neckos formidable attack and turned it right
back at him, and in doing so he took advantage of Neckos biggest
mistake, and Rust exposed this flaw perfectly and dramatically with
his copy and paste of Websters definition of the word dive.
Coincidentally, we also noticed how Neckos protest was lacking that
bit of "copy and paste" information, it calls a dive a faked
knockout. There can be no argument here, both Necko and Rust give
facts that cannot be ignored, Liston stayed down for any number of
reasons, but he did not stay down from the effects of Ali's punch,
in other words, he faked it.
In Neckos protest he
says, "I am not a sore loser but" .........
All three judges have
agree'd Rust Oleum's 2nd round case was so strong that at the
completion of round 2 Necko stumbled back to his corner, dazed and
confused from what just transpired and in desperation filed a
protest, trying to save his championship belt. The referee calls a
halt to this bout before the beginning of round 3 as an incoherant
Necko sits on the stool in his corner.
The Winner & NEW I.F.F.B.C
Champion........Rust Oooooooooleeeeeeeeum!
A stunning upset, however a
double victory over Neckodeemus. You are the new Fan Fight Champion.
What next?
Rust Oleum:
...I am not complaining but...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
and I am not a sore loser
but,waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
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NECKODEEMUS |
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What a complete and total
loser! This so called Champion quits because I took him out
of his game with some first round trickery and swindled him
to expose his entire hand in the next round! This was too
easy. Attacking me for researching the facts and using them
merely proves he was using the same exact info. And ooooh, I
copied and pasted 4 lines, such a horrible crime!!! Here's
another copy and paste straight from the fallen Champ, "as
you know on BM I do not like people abusing my sport."
You're sport? Who the heck are you, The Marques of
Queesbury?
No, you are just a quitter,
a stigma not well received by the entire boxing
community!
I'd like to go on and pick
apart your crying and whining, but I have other issues
to address.
I can not accept the title by defeating this chump, so I
am throwing the title into the trash can. I am sure
Necko will try to dig it out on one of his midnight food
runs. As to the prize, give it to Necko on one
condition, that he is allowed to get only the Ali-Liston
rematch and nothing more!
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I own you Necko, and I look forward to beating you
more when you make your comeback!
As an extra bonus to my
fans I have added a up close look at Neckos choppers.
Yuk, his teeth are as foul as his game!
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Twice losing to Rust, the
only 2 losses on your record. Tell us what happened in round 2 and where
do you go from here? Also, one of the judges pulled out before the fight
started, do you think that may have hurt your chances in this rematch?
Neckodeemus:
Basically my opponent was
allowed to cheat and will hold the belt with as much distinction as
Panama Al Lewis...a name I know as a fan but my opponent will not
recognise. An unwise move was made by the judges and the "Fan" has now
been taken from Fan Fight as it is now a question of who can best cut
and paste their way to victory which is probably the reason my full
complaint was not included...a complaint that included the correct site
link so fans could find out how bankrupt the argument of my opponent was
and will be for future
bouts. So I've had my last fight and will retire gracefully and with the
clarity of mind that comes from being a true fan.
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Fan Fight
(Mar. 7-13):
CANCELLED
"John
Ruiz: Genuine Champion or Sign of Heavyweight Decay?" |
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Current Result: Blue: 0,
Red: 0 |
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Awaiting opponent for the Blue Corner:
Ruiz is a Genuine Champion
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(Click
Here To Enter Blue Corner)
Awaiting opponent
for the Red Corner: Ruiz is a Sign of
Heavyweight Decay -
(Click Here To Enter Red Corner) |
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Fan
Fight (Feb. 28-Mar. 6):
I.F.F.B.C. Championship Fan
Fight
"Who Is The
Best P4P Fighter Of All Time?"
Begins Monday
Feb 28th |
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Result at Time of Stoppage:
Blue-Red:
9-10, 9-10, 10-9
Neckodeemus KO 2
Enzo Macaroni |
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Blue Corner:
Enzo Macaroni (2-2, 2 KO's) - Sugar Ray Robinson
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Red Corner: Neckodeemus (6-1, 3 KO's) I.F.F.B.C. Champ -
Marvin Hagler -
Judges: "Thrill"(Ref), "Threat", "Straight Shootin"
Sheila |
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-Round 1 - |
Blue:
"First of all,
a well done to Neckodeemus on his previous, closely-contested fight.
Secondly, if I had not chosen Sugar Ray, Marvin Hagler would have been
right up there, as he is undoubtedly one of the top 10 p4p fighters of
all time.
Now to my argument.
When it comes to skill, speed, power and boxing intelligence, I can't
see past Ray Robinson. He is the best boxer of all time. I will talk
about his story, and his battle to get into the ring in the first place,
later in the fight, but for now I'll concentrate on the basics. He was
one of the first African American athletes to became well-known outside
the boxing arena. He was the world welterweight champion from 1946 to
1951, won the middleweight title five times between 1951 and 1960, and
has been universally acknowledged as one of the greatest boxers in the
history of the sport. With a 175-19-6 record and 109 knockouts from
1940-65, 14 losses and four draws came after his 36th birthday. He held
his last middleweight title at 38 for goodness sake - and before anyone
blurts out the words BERNARD and HOPKINS, let's be honest, he's not on
the same planet when it comes to ability. Robinson never lost to a
welterweight by the way, and when he eventually
gave up the 147-pound title to challenge Jake LaMotta for the
middleweight championship in 1951, his record was 121-1-2, with the loss
(to LaMotta in a previous battle) and both draws coming in non-title
fights against
middleweights. Robinson almost won the light heavyweight championship in
1952. He was far ahead of Joey Maxim when he collapsed from the heat on
a boiling New York night and could not come out for the 14th round. It
was as a welterweight that Robinson was at his best. He was champion
from 1946-50 and was 5-1 against three other top 10 welterweights of the
century. He beat both Armstrong and Kid Gavilan (No. 9) twice and split
two fights with Carmen Basilio (No. 6). The two matches with Basilio,
however, were for the middleweight title, and both were decided on split
decisions. Robinson also is remembered for his six fights against
LaMotta, the No.7-ranked middleweight. Robinson won five of them. Nobody
has put together a record like, this, against opposition like this, and
done it with so much style and success. The latter years may have been
tainted by tales of fraud, he fought on due to money problems, but the
same, to an extent, can be said of Ali and Louis. By the way, those two
regarded him as the best, and I value those opinions
very highly. It would be easier for me to argue for Julio Cesar Chavez,
or Hagler, Duran, even Ali - because we have seen so many of their
fights and experienced many of them live. But for the connoisseur, a
timeless gem like Sugar Ray Robinson must be given his dues and placed
at the top of the pile."
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Red:
"Acknowledgements aside and I
must admit that my top two P4P of all time are Hagler number one and Ray
Robinson number two. However I feel Marvin is the better fighter not
only in terms of an imaginary match-up between the two at 160 lbs but
also has a more defining legacy. Like my opponent I'll get down to
basics first. Basically Marvin is the most complete fighter of all time
but like Robinson suffers from a before/after effect as he was at this
best in my opinion in fights leading up to his title win and early in
his reign. He could box exceptionally well as a southpaw, jab, feint,
move and bamboozle opponents much like Robinson but he was also a
vicious fighter in the orthodox style and could bang much more harder
and consistently than Robinson. Also both men had legacies at
middleweight as you mention but most reports brand Robinson a better
welterweight whereas Hagler was a remarkably disciplined one weight man.
Plus whilst it is true Robinson won the title five times he also lost it
as many times whereas Marvin jealously held onto his title to repel
everyone but father time! Also Robinson fought a lot but Hagler did as
well considering the activity of fighters in his era and multiply his
record to the level of Robinson and it would compare well (62 - 3 - 2 (x
3) = 186 - 9 - 6 so less losses ideally). Now you talk about Ray as a
welterweight and I myself have heard that he fought better at this
weight but in a dream match either as he was at 160 lbs or coming up in
weight to Marvin's natural territory Haglers strength would put Ray in a
similar spot to the one he found himself in v Maxim...his only stoppage
loss under the same sun that was burning onto Maxim. Marvin ate up
welterweights like Pac-Man and was only denied a final victory over the
"other" Ray by inexplicable scoring. So as you point out both fought
defining fights v men who had welter careers or at least began as
welters but Hagler was the more impressive. La Motta, Basillo and
Gavilan (plus Ray Robinson did strictly, like Marvin, lose to FORMER
WELTERS as a MIDDLE so the comparison is not really fair) are good names
but so too are Duran, Hearns and Mugabi and in my opinion Hearns would
defeat the three names you mention yet Marvin Mk II destroyed Hearns and
I feel would have been victorious v the names you bring up. Throw in
Haglers longevity v solid middle contenders like Briscoe, Antuofermo,
Minter, Hamsho and avenged losses v Monroe and Watts (both avenged in
style) and I believe a picture of a better fighter takes shape. Ray
Robinson was the showman for the connoisseur but Hagler is the
blue-collar champion of the technicians...less flash but more bash! Ps
Hagler also suffered a loss past his best and should have been only two
against!"
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"Thrill":
Although at first glance I was not
impressed with the pick of Neckodeemus, I must admit he made some pretty
good points, first impressions mean a lot and I will score this one for
The Champ, keep your hands up Enzo, you are asking for trouble!
"Threat": Very
impressed by both men, however it appears Neckodeemus has the harder
task in this fight and that makes it a shy more impressive in the
opening round, as was just as tough. We'll see how long he can hold
this up. Good comment by Enzo on Robinson never losing to welterweights.
Would have liked Neckodeemus to have called it "Ms Pac-Man" just for the
inside laugh, but he makes a strong case for those who only see Ali and
Robinson at the top of the p4p. Slight edge to Red.
"Straight Shootin" Sheila:
Interesting pick of Hagler. I would expect to have seen Ali and Robinson
argued over as the best ever, but as Hopkins is now becoming one of
those top, top fighters, one must look at one of the best middleweights
and that would most definitely be Hagler. And if Hopkins is going to
have a great era remembered for his time in the ring, I think Hagler's
surpasses that with the competition that was available to him at that
time. However, Robinson is highly regarded as one of the top 2 best
fighters to ever live and I think Neckodeemus picked a harder than
expected title defense with this one. Good points for Hagler, but I
think Enzo's remarks on Robinson win him the 1st round. The names Enzo
mentions including LaMotta, Basilio, Gavilan are enough to be spread
across 3 rounds, but he fit them in 1.
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- Round 2 - |
Red: "Like my hero I am the
"Champion" and champs do not take easy fights so don't insult me with
those comments guys! Ok Enswell now I've gotten you a little bit bloody
don't think I'll let you of the Hooky because you're my BM buddy!
Our judges comments only strengthen my resolve as it makes my blood
boil when people assume Marvin is not the top choice for P4P supremacy
just because he is not flashy. He has the right and you're last round
sounded like you was reading from a record book rather than telling me
why Ray Robinson is better than the "Marvellous" one!! So lets do it the
right way. If you and I wanted to fight to discover who is the top dog
all outside achievements would become superfluous as we'd ideally find
out in the ring. So in boxing we fans invent a Valhalla where top guys
meet at an agreed weight over fifteen rounds (to separate the men from
the boys!) and go at it for three fights. One fight could be marred by
scoring controversy etc. but over three, as shown in Barrera v Morales
(cough!!), the cream rises. So our agreed weight will be middle as Ray
fought there and Marvin knew no other weight. Now by your own admission,
and my own research, accounts at the time say Ray was a better fighter
at welter and this coupled with Marvin's phenomenal strength gives
Hagler an advantage at middle as he was a big natural middle weight. I
know that you are going to point to styles and may point out Marvin lost
to another flashy "Ray" in Leonard...many do this but are mistaken as
the two Rays are not identical. Ray Leonard fought with constant
movement and FLURRIES whilst Ray Robinson whilst blessed with footwork
moved more economically and threw COMBINATIONS with intent and sat down
on his punches (see La Motta fights where Ray hit and got hit). So he'd
be a more accessible target for Marvin to punch at and Hagler's punching
would carry greater strength as we must not forget he is a natural
middle weight. So comparisons here between Leonard's performance and a
possible Robinson performance are poor ones. Next I'd say you will bring
up the picture perfect left hook Ray demolished Fulmer with in one of
their battles and you may speculate on what may happen if it exploded on
Hagler's chin. Speculate no more
Boyyo just look what happened in round ten v Mugabi when an absolutely
text book uppercut rotated the head of Marvin but...no effect. Huge
right hand by Thomas Hearns in round one? Hagler shrugged it of. So no
chance of Robinson by Ko...and don't even mention the Roldan fight as
that was a slip and pull in the eyes of absolutely everyone but the ref!
On the other hand Robinson did go down and was dumped by La Motta who
was a pressure puncher and not as powerful at as Hagler (in all I count
at least NINE [possibly TEN] Kd's in career of Ray...oh and the crowd
booed his win over Gavilan despite press giving him victory, a recurring
theme in some fights). So in terms of ways to win I'd say Hagler can box
with Ray, out-punch him and carried the greater beard so therefore would
carry two fights in a dream trilogy, one by decision and another by
possible late stoppage. Finally before you talk about Ray's footwork
remember that it often got him into trouble as he spent too much time
practising it in Harlem or Paris nightclubs and came unstuck memorably v
Turpin. Overall we've announced the dream fight and whilst Ray the
'Showman' is touring and dancing in Paris Marvin the 'Blue-collar
Champion' is brooding in a gym somewhere in New Jersey focussing on the
task in hand!"
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Blue: "Will leave the 7,000 word
arguments to a great intellect like yourself, but there's no doubt that
when people are asked to name the greatest fighter of all time, Sugar
Ray gets more votes than Marvellous Marvin.
You made a point about me listing, rather than arguing in the first
round, but in my eyes that list alone would and should have been enough
to KO you, purely because of the names on show. The argument was not
"Who is the flashiest fighter", it's "Who is the best", flashiness has
nothing to do with it. Ray was a crowd-pleaser, of that there's no
doubt, he did it in style, he could knock a guy out while going
backwards for goodness sake, bring punches from all angles, change
styles at any time he wanted and do the most important thing of all a
monumental 175 times - WIN. And if anything I'd say it was a little
easier arguing for a guy who hung up his gloves during our lifetime,
whose memory lives strong, rather than harping back 50-60 years to the
victories over many men who themselves were among the greatest P4P
boxers, and yes I will list them again - Basilio,
Gavilan, Fulmer, La Motta, Armstrong, Zivic, Graziano.....the list goes
on and on. You also argue that this Fan Fight should be at Middleweight,
knowing that Ray was undefeated as a Welter! With Marvin's "beard" he'd
have more than likely gone the distance, but Ray would have run rings
around him. Imagine Ray Leonard x3 and you get the picture. I know
Leonard fought with constant movement, but I feel Robinson's
punch-picking, speed and power would have been more than enough to deal
with Hagler. And yes, I know that Hagler-Leonard was a controversial
decision, but that's not the point, the point is you don't get to pick
and choose which weight these guys fight at because that's not the
argument. You argue of Marvin's "phenomenal strength" which is a fair
point, but he did it at one weight, why not do what Sugar Ray and many
others have done and show your ability and mettle at others....?
Robinson always had excellent power.
By the way, when comparing chins let's look at La Motta? His chin was
like granite, and yes he never went down, but Ray beat him FIVE times,
losing once, and that was due to the intense pressure and flurries of
Jake, speed I never saw in a Hagler performance, especially against
someone as quick as
this. He was a great fighter, no question, but he was workmanlike and
pedestrian. Mugabe was exhausted when Hagler beat him, Hearns chin has
always been questioned (Barkley, Kinchen), but the main attribute of
Hagler, besides his power, was sheer determination and will. A certain
Walker Smith had such determination, will and hunger that he changed his
name and boxed 40 times before losing once, then going another eight
years without defeat.
"Overall, we've announced the dream fight and whilst Ray the
'Showman'
is touring and dancing in Paris Marvin the 'Blue-collar Champion'
is
brooding in a gym somewhere in New Jersey focussing on the
task
in
hand!"
You say this, but we have announced nothing. This dream fight at
middle
is not what the argument is about, it's about who was the best.
You've
based your entire second round on it, and even if I play
along,
Robinson wins."
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* Ladies
and Gentlemen...This Fan Fight has been taken out of the judges
hands. In a round that Neckodeemus was dominating literally
from pillar to post, and a round that he was winning on each of the
judges cards, Enzo Macaroni decided to pull a bit of ill advised
showboating in the closing seconds, only to be caught flush with a
wicked one-two combo that dropped him like a sack of potatoes for
the full 10 count.
Official time, 2:54 of the 2nd Round *
Another fellow Fan
Fighter was to be in attendance last week and had a few things to say:
Rust Oleum: Ahh Necko,
callin out the ladies now? I would be careful if I were you! That Gloria
seems a bit to smart for a toothless hooligan like you! And in the words
of your countryman Howard Eastman, "I mean no disrespect
but"............................I don't respect you in the least...I do
hate ya though!
Necko, a bit of a shocker
here in a fight that was expected to go the distance, what are your
thoughts and what went through you head at the 2nd round closing?
Neckodeemus: Firstly
respect is due to my opponent and I'm a little disappointed he was not
given a chance to contest round three as I had some big shots loaded up.
This one was a labour of love as I wanted to explode the cliche that no
other boxer but Ali and Ray Robinson can be considered for P4P number
one. I am Neckodeemus the embalmer and I see (K)Rusty the clown has
resurfaced after his "Gift" win over me, some village is missing its
idiot but I'm supremely indifferent to him as his grasp of English is as
poor as his name. Your arms are too short to box with GOD (K)Rusty so
get back to the Simpsons.
Enzo, surely this has to
come of somewhat a surprise to you. Did you see the punch, and where do
you go from here?
Enzo Macaroni:
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